The Driscoll Rant – An Apology To non Christians
June 7, 2009, posted by Jim, under The Practicing Church | | 106 Comments
Recently the pastor of Seattle’s fastest growing church went off on men who abuse their wives. If you turned the sound off it would be hard to tell who’s side he’s on. I asked some facebook friends to comment and got mixed reviews. Some thought he was bold others thought he was bizarre
The Practicing Church needs to be an honest church. We need to own our stuff. We need to live lives that Outsiders want to emulate. That’s why I need to write this piece. I know that the people I would like to speak to – namely non Christians living in Seattle – will probably not read this apology but as Christians like to say “even if only one reads it – it was worth it”
I have no comment about Driscolls teaching, belief about women or emergence as the poster boy for the neo fundamentalist movement in America. Nor does my opinion about his plans to expand his church to 50K via project-a-pastor matter.
But as a follower of Jesus living in Seattle, I do have an obligation to speak up when his platform gets so large that he is percieved by non Christians as the spokesperson for evangelical Christianity in the city of Seattle.
To non Christians in Seattle
When you watch this video you are right to think that this man is dangerous. You are right to worry about his influence over thousands of young people and you’re right to ask each other “Do all Christians think this way?” And by the way, you’re right to wonder if this guy is even a Christian.
While I don’t speak for anyone except myself, as a follower of Jesus I want you to know that I completely agree with you.
Frankly we deserve your critique. Our silence is no different than the silence of pro life people who privately detested the killing of Dr Tiller but refused to speak out publicly in case their pro life friends might criticize them for appearing to be soft on abortion. Our silence is no different than the silence of moderate Muslims many of us waited to hear from in the wake of 9/11.
I’m sad to say that many people agree with Driscoll when he says that it wasn’t him talking but “God Talking”.
There’s something Clintonesque about Driscoll. Like our ex president of dubious fame, he has the capacity to not only say things that are wrong or say them badly but to do both simutaneously and be given a pass. At least for awhile.
Holy cow…
All christianese, sexist ideology, and abusive shaming statements aside, I wonder: he may have just a teeny, slight misunderstanding about the mechanics of the inner ear. Mine is hooked to my heart and busted with the sudden influx of decibels coming from his big mouth, then closed up shortly therafter…
my inner ears are now permanently affected and may never hear him again. My heart has sustained serious damage in the trust lobe…
Tami
“And by the way, you’re right to wonder if this guy is even a Christian.” Seriously? I have no sympathy for Driscoll’s theatrics and I believe there are many dirty little secrets in the closets that need to be confronted. I also don’t believe you can act any old way you want as long as you have your “personal savior”. But this video showing someone’s foolish excess and “you’re right to wonder if this guy is even a Christian.”? That can easily lead to just another code of behavior someone thinks they need to meet before they can be a follower of Jesus. I think Jesus would confront abuse of all kinds and he also strongly confronted the so-called spiritual authority of his day in their own abuses. I couldn’t stomach Driscoll if this is the norm for him but questioning the state of his heart before God? A little troubling but there you go…
honestly, I could not watch the entire clip. it felt like bullying and intimidation. as much i work for the cause of ending domestic violence, i’m disappointed that driscoll doesn’t understand this his approach is far too akin to the same behaviors of abusers.
As someone who is sheltering her daughter and grandchildren from an abusive man, I am appalled at the shallowness displayed here. To think that a man will change simply because he has been yelled at on a Sunday morning is ludicrous. I am also perplexed at the lack of resources available within the church to help an abused woman … not to mention, the lack of legal protection. My daughter had to leave and could not even get police escort to get her children’s clothes or her clothes. The police say it is communal property and she will have to go to court to get access to it. It will be too late by then, her abuser will have destroyed it all. She arrived at my home with a diaper bag with one change of clothes for the baby and two diapers. that is all she had time to get.
Instead of ranting and screaming at these men, we need to create safe environments and provide for these women to GET OUT!
I have no respect for Mark Driscoll and this is just another reason why.
As I commented in another place, one needs to consider the psychology underlying Pr. Driscoll’s behavior. Me thinks he seriously risks playing the role of persecuter in the adictive circle of perpetrator-victim-persecutor. Many abusers beat up on themselves continually feeling deeply guilty about their abusive behavior. But such guilt does not overcome their addiction to abusive behavior. If healing comes to them, it is because someone has helped them understand and deal with their feelings of dependancy and fear of loss that feeds the controlling abusiveness. Simply beating up on abusers as Driscoll does not get at the roots of the problem.
It’s interesting that I still see the us vs them mentality in christians. And I’m not talking about Driscoll. Now, instead of us/them being christians/non-christians (right or wrong as that may be), it’s us/them being christians/other christians. It’s no better.
I have no idea the context that this rant came from. And I’m sure there’s plenty to disagree with in regards to Driscoll. My pastor happens to be a big Driscoll fan (I’m not). But what does that have to do with whether or not Driscoll is a follower of Christ? maybe he’s wrong, so what? We’re ALL wrong about plenty! And just because be may be plenty wrong in how he delivered this rant, that doesn’t put him any nearer or farther from Christ than you are. I see plenty wrong right here on this website. But that doesn’t make me want to divide from you, it makes me want to understand how God could be calling you to things that are contrary to my sensibilities, when that same God called me to things that are contrary to your sensibilities.
Is Driscoll right or wrong? Yes, he is. Probably both. Just like you. Just like me.
I hear you, Mike. The issue for those of us who have labeled ourselves Christian here is whether or not Driscoll represents Jesus well. He would, of course, say that this is precisely what Jesus would do/say/feel/etc. (and sort of implies that this was God’s doing anyway). I suppose he’d have to be pretty convinced about this to go ahead and scream at people and not apologize for losing control.
If this was an isolated moment where he lost his cool, went over the top…well, all of us have done and said stupid things in the heat of the moment (although few of us were being filmed at the time, thank goodness!). But this is a pattern of behavior, a style of communication that he uses fairly regularly. He is a bully, at the very least. He may be abusive in the technical sense (at least the abuse of power on stage). And he may have issues that will spill out at some point and destroy him, his family and his church (this is pretty “normal” now a days, I guess). And these are the issues we should be concerned about…not his status in the Christian club. What does loving Mark Driscoll look like for a follower of Jesus?
Of course we are concerned about our leaders when they get out of line (more than we are when we get out of line ourselves), but it seems like we who are trying to follow the lead of Jesus should probably qet out of the condemnation business and into the loving our neighbor/enemy business a little more. And I’m first in line for help on this, believe me.
Good commentary Mike. I happened to send this to some friends first, without having watched the video (at work). Upon getting a favorable response towards the clip I had to come back and watch it.
I understand their agreement with Driscoll about the issue of abuse (be it emotional or physical) with women, and many of them feel strongly about it (though I’m unsure if they’ve even been close to a situation like that).
I don’t think they’ve come at it from the angle you have of “is this really going to help people?”. And some of the comments have pointed that out explicitly. Thanks!
I can’t help but notuce that none of the women commenters have come to Driscolls defense or sought to soften the blow.
Please keep in mind that I am writing this to non Christians- the one group whose feelings/perceptions(other than worrying that we are giving them to many negatives to work with) we seem the most disinterested in.
I expect many Christians to disagree with me.
Mike you know I respect your thoughts but in this case we will have to agree to disagree. As Randy said – this is a pattern and Driscoll is a bully.
I agree with Randy as well.
Except that I’m going to have to wrestle him for that first place in line. **GRIN**
All in all, Jim, it’s been a good conversation, and good debate. I’m still disturbed with the statement:
So, is he?
It would seem that you imply that he isn’t. Then, go on to humbly say that the critique is valuable. (Which it absolutely is).
I love Randy’s question, “What does loving Mark Driscoll look like for a follower of Jesus?” I think of Jesus at the waterside by the charcoal fire cooking breakfast after Peter had betrayed him. Peter saw him, jumped out of the boat, swam to the shore, and he and Jesus had breakfast there together….perfect peace…recognized redemption. That’s what loving Driscoll would look like (to me at least). Jesus is forgiving…but firm.
The difference was that there was repentance and reconciliation. I doubt that this conversation will push Mark Driscoll to repent. **SIGH** And so we go round and round.
Depends on whose following
Remember this is not written to Driscoll. It is written to the thousands of non Christians in Seattle who wonder where Christians are who find Driscoll as dangerous as they do.
I dont expect for Driscoll to even care what we are saying. He can find this critique in a hundred other places.
I hope a few non Christians see this. That’s really all I care about.
I’m still wondering what loving Driscoll would look like. Seems like love would compel us to speak into his life in some way, maybe even strongly. But unless it was someone who he felt loved him in the past, the chances are pretty slim it would do much good. And I have to wonder if there is anyone in his life who he would listen to anyway. I have some personal experience with this kind of leader, which probably makes me less than hopeful…if not downright cynical.
I, too, care about what my outsider friends think when they see someone like this. Of course, we don’t see Mark much here in the high desert of Reno, but we do have several Driscoll fans here (young pastors) who emulate him. They aren’t very open to hearing any critique, either. The real problem here isn’t non-believers. They could care less about another ranting Christian leader. The real problem is the growing number of young believers who think this kind of rage and bullying is a sign of God’s prophetic voice…and they follow these leaders as if they were new messiahs. This troubles me deeply, and I don’t know what to do about it.
come and follow me :-) (does that sound cultish :-) )
I’m a recovering yeller preacher. :) After years of counseling, dealing with personal issues, and personal change I don’t think I could preach again in that style. What motivated this in me was anger, insecurity, and lack of self-control. So I guess I don’t get mad at Mark here, just think that he’s got issues.
Don’t get me wrong I still dig yelling preachers…just not the ones that yell AT you, which is what Mark appears to be doing here.
Jim, I think you are selling non-christians short here. Driscoll is irrelevant. They don’t listen or watch him. Yes, he perpetuates the stereotype of the falwell,dobson,kirk cameron genre, but that’s okay because non-christians really don’t care about those guys. Non-christians wouldn’t put Driscoll in the same “category” as Mother Theresa or The Christian Children’s Fund peeps.
Nevertheless, I understand your concern.
A few weeks ago I blogged on the same subject after listening to the entire hour plus on a drive up from Portland. My blog’s closing comment was: “Holy crap, as the saying goes! This very intelligent, and accomplished young man totally missed the irony of this bombastic moment in a sermon where he largely exhorted the seated men to stop being macho, screaming, threatening bullies. It was a classic high school moment — the school thug showing off for the girls in the audience. It was also a classic OT moment renewing the false perception of a vengeful God just waiting for us to screw up so he could smite us. It did not remind me at all of Jesus giving up his right to life for us.”
I really have to support Jim’s question which is attracting some arrows his direction, which was not about Mark’s belief, but does Ps. Driscoll’s behavior reflect what “following” should look like? We all have to be on the alert. Does our behavior reflect our beliefs and our commitment? For me, probably not most of the time, but that doesn’t mean I should blow off being alert to how followers and future followers see my actions.
By the way, despite the ranting and the pandering and talking down to the women, Driscoll gave some pretty sound advice and exhortation to the men to basically man-up…a message sorely needed these days inside and outside the church. The scary thing is that Mark sees manning-up in a classic macho bs manner. You should have heard him cruely put down men who choose stay home and raise their kids. Mark should try it sometime and see if he’s man enough!
And yes, Randy, your point about loving the guy is well taken. When he starts to talk about dark beer being from God and light beer from the other guy… he’s really, really loveable!
I grew up with a Pastor a lot like Driscoll. It led to a church where many if not most of us were never able, in a sense, to grow up intelectually and spiritually. The result for me has been that I’ve left Christianity and not been able to return, even though since then I’ve found out there are a lot of much more mature, thinking Christians who are a lot more bearable, even fun, to be around than the bullying, unkind type, treat-others-like-a-child type.
I think Driscoll is setting up some largish percentage of the thousands who listen to him every week and attend Mars Hill churches to also leave the faith and never come back. Too bad we couldn’t do a longitudinal study to see where all the current Mars Hill congregants are with regards to Christianity, church, the Bible et. al in … 2020 and 2030. I’d be willing to bet a *much* higher percentage of them will have left the faith altogether than in a lot of other types of Christian churches.
There’s a brilliant book by Stefan Ulstein, a Seattle based journalist, called Growing up Fundamentalist. You can get it at Amazon for about $10. Ulstein sat down in a Seattle coffee shop over a period of months and interviewed over 100 people who had grown up in Fundamentalist churches–many very like Mars Hill in lots of ways. He took what he thought were the best 30 or so and put them in this book. It’s astoundingly well done and gives some great insights–also I think it provides a lot of sorrow for people who care about Christianity.
Benjamin
That was powerfully stated. I couldn’t agree more. Much of the same pattern happened to many people in the Jesus people movemment. As a follower of Jesus you raise my chief concern regarding Mars Hill. Given his current burn rate/pattern there is almost zero chance Driscoll wont end up fulfilling your prediction. I like the idea of the longitudinally study- might help the next version of a Mars Hill church that will inevitably arise. I am fascinated by the seeming inability of Christians to remember those churches and leaders who have done exactly the same thing in their own lifetimes. It seems like leaders( orators actually) like Driscoll are a drug and Christians are the addicts.
Al,
I LOVED this insight…right on target, I think:
On a personal level, almost every time I see a Driscoll video I find myself wishing I was sitting in the front row with a few of my biker buddies. It would be fun to see him try to intimidate them. I suspect it’s easier when you have a room full of twenty-somethings who worship the pot you piss in.
And love, in that very personal scenario, would look like an ass whipping on stage with him being dragged to the nearest mental hospital for a 72 hour observation.
But those are mostly my own issues.
I get you Jim. When one is on film (presenting oneself to the world) the audience should be considered. This yelling and screaming is a turn-off.I don’t want to be around anyone who freaks out like that. I had to take a break after about a minute worth just to get through it. I am a preacher and as I continue to live I am realizing that in the past when I was raising my voice it was because I was trying to convince myself; Now about the only time I raise my voice is when my own mind is blown by God’s scandalous love for people. It is a happy kind of loud. I think it would look happy on film? I hope it would.
Love is in the eye of the beholder. We give Jesus a pass because he is God but to be honest he was case by case when it came to how he showed love.
Centurion
Woman at the Well
Woman weeping on his feet
The Pharisees who were watching
Nicodemus
The man waiting for an angel to stir the water
Blind Bartimeus
He showed love in tender and offensive ways
Depends who was watching and what kind of mood they were in.
Same with us – we bring our own emotional expectations and needs to scripture and read into it whatever it is we happen to be needing at the time.
So the whole show Driscoll some love is a moot point – As he himself seems to so aptly model – one persons abuse is another persons love
Not to be the lone Driscoll defender, but …
I could see him writing a couple of these posts we have here. There’s a whole lotta posturing and flexing going on.
And I’m not a Driscoll fan, I just think we’ve got a log/speck thing happening here.
——————————————————
And for what it’s worth, I went back and listened again, and my issue with it isn’t that he yelled, but rather that the yelling was contrived. I don’t believe he lost his cool for one second. That wasn’t emotional yelling, it was scripted (IMO). After all, he WAS on camera.
First, talk real soft to get them to lean in. then YELL AS LOUD AS YOU CAN AND KEEP YELLING AND SAY ‘WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE’ SO THEY THINK YOU’RE REALLY PASSIONATE.
I think it was on purpose and planned, intended to be an “effective communication.” Here’s where I will agree with y’all – it was absolutely NOT effective.
no worries Mike I dont think you are – check out earlier comments
Serisously though- what gifts are you utilizing that enable you to see what you are saying about Driscoll acting – and even if he is how does that excuse his behavior (for the few of us who see it as negative)
Randy,
You make me grin. Thank you. If you and some of your biker buddies ever come up to Seattle, you should totally go to a Mars Hill Service and sit in the front row. Just check before hand to make sure Driscoll is going to be live rather than beamed in from another campus.
At the very least you could all have a prearranged signal for walking out, from the very front row, at some particularly obnoxious point =)
Mike–I’m hoping I wasn’t guilty of posturing and flexing. =)
I dunno. Maybe I have trust issues now that I’m no longer part of the church machine – I’ve seen the dark underbelly and lived to tell about it. :)
it doesn’t excuse anything. There’s just something inside me that bristles when I see Christians criticize someone else’s ministry – even if they’re right. It’s way too easy (albeit fun!) to find fault in your opponent (for lack of a better word). It’s not so easy to find value. And somehow, I believe there is value in his ministry.
Or not. :)
Mike- I did not criticize his “ministry”
I am criticizing him- the person – the dangerous man
Alss- if you want to understand why
1) I dont view this as inter brethren fighting
2) Out of bounds
Read A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
Some quotes
“Leaders assume that toxic forces can be regulated through reasonableness”
“The importance of leaders being well informed is overrated. The focus on the intellect outside of an emotional context is actually anti intellectual”
I guess I have the same gifts as Mike O because I thought the yelling seemed deliberate too, the soft-LOUD-soft being all part of the delivery sermon plan, aimed at maximum emotional effect.
I expect Mark sees the yelling as appropriate righteous anger, just like Jesus’ righteous anger when he turned over tables in the Temple area. Although I doubt Jesus’ outburst was premeditated and gauged for emotional effect.
The understanding that abusing abusers is unlikely to teach them abuse is wrong comes from psychology, a field which some Christians are unfortunately overly skeptical of because they regard it as conflicting with Biblical truth. When Christians ignore valuable insights from psychology they are likely to make mistakes like this.
Since I think Mark’s yelling was deliberate I’d categorize it as an error of judgment and failure to learn helpful information from psychology rather than an example of a person being out of control.
Mark’s question “Who the hell do you think you are?” is an interesting one, given that he is the person claiming his words are God’s words and, by implication, his yelling at supposed abusers is appropriate.
While criticizing abusers Mark at the same time unfortunately and ironically validates their methods by yelling himself. So Mark in effect implies “Some yelling is ok”, leaving the door open for abusers to justify yelling at their spouses when they are ‘righteously angry’.
I never went to a church with a pastor like Mark, but even so, being under the spiritual authority of church leaders without specific training in how to be ’safe’ people or mental health issues turned out to be problematic for me and I would never put myself in that situation again. It’s one of the significant reasons I quit church. It has to be so much worse in an environment like Mars Hill Seattle where the pastor acts in such an authoritarian manner and equates his words with God’s. I think it’s very likely Benjamin is right, that many people will leave that church environment, never to return to church. After all, I did and my church wasn’t anywhere near that extreme.
I suppose this probably isn’t the place for it, but I’ve taken the liberty of typing out the monologue. I want to post it here and make some observations:
Once one gets over the trauma of listening to it, and starts to look at it … more coldly, more analytically, some (at least for me) really fascinating things emerge.
One thing that’s really fascinating is the way he models the cycle of domestic violence, with tension building at the beginning, then the verbal violence, then the sort of making up/deescalation at the end, when he finally reassures his victims, in a much calmer voice, that he does indeed love them.
Another fascinating thing is the way he recognizes, and goes straight to, some of the issues at the heart of domestic violence–the lack of maturity which *leads* to domestic violence–the fact that perpetrators are often stuck, in a sense, trying to fix a relationship pattern from their childhood, and the *enormous* shame involved–perpetrators of course feel overwhelming self-shame. Unfortunately, Mark just exacerbates all these issues-with his “Little boy” and “Grow up” and litany of “Shame on you”.
It’s fascinating that Driscoll acknowledges out loud that Mars Hill is an environment where domestic violence flourishes. “Some of you guys have been coming here for years, and …”. I’m terribly curious to know if he actually imagines that changing nothing will change something. I remember a phrase I heard from old twelve-steppers: “If nothing changes, nothing changes.”
The shame and the shaming is really the key here. Jac Browns quotes Silvan Tomkins (2004) brilliantly:
Tomkins nails it. Driscoll is a fool to imagine that he can help fix a problem which is driven by shame by heaping on more of the same. I am so saddened for all the guys and gals who attend Mars Hill who, as Driscoll acknowledges, are experiencing *years* of domestic violence (both as perpetrators and victims), and whose church, which should be actually helping them, simply exacerbates the problem.
Thank you for talking about this. Mark Driscoll’s teachings have harmed a lot of people close to me. Have you seen this site? http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/
Stephy
Thanks for sharing the site. Looks like momnetum is building on many fronts
Driscoll’s church teaches that men are in complete authority over their wives, to an extreme and dangerous degree. Driscoll once told the husband of a woman I know, “you’d better control your wife” (i.e., make her shut up) after the woman politely questioned one of Driscoll’s teachings. I’ve heard so many horror stories from women who have come out of that church…
Throwing a hissy fit at “abusers” is ridiculous if for years you have, from an institutional and leadership perspective, laid the social and theological groundwork for abuse, consistently undercut women as a gender, verbally slaughtered men and women who challenge you, and (from the pulpit) labeled men who disagree with you as “pussies” who are out of favor with God. Pot? Meet kettle.
JM
We hear you
First of all, thank you, Jim, for opening up this discussion! I appreciate what you’re saying and your wanting to enlighten non-Christians that Driscoll most certainly does NOT stand as representative of all Christians nor, many times as seen here, of Jesus’ character.
Benjamin, well said! I’ve listened to part of Driscoll’s rant; it’s hard to stomach. When I read the typed out transcript I gasped out loud a couple of times, and exclaimed, “What?!” I am educated and trained in the mental health field, and what he is doing (in this clip and in his overall ministry) and how he is communicating, all of that, completely opposes any sentiment he might be trying to get across as the hero on a white horse championing for women’s rights to not be abused and treated like objects, possessions, etc… The things this man has said about women–one example: they’re apparently “satanic” if they have aspirations to be a preacher’s wife, or if they want to be a woman’s leader and/or woman’s bible study teacher…
(see my blog post: Christian Taliban & Christian Women Donning Berkas: Spiritual Warfare Series )
–and the demeaning way he often seems to treat women as well as what looks like manipulative control tactics used with “his” congregation as a whole, are hugely incongruent with his posing as one who is against abuse. And as you stated, he is in the act of abusing even as he purportedly takes a stand against abuse.
I was reading about this rant of Driscoll’s elsewhere, and a good point was made there (wish I could remember where “there” was, sorry) which I also share. Perhaps this is Driscoll’s way of placating those who have begun to question his oppression of women, and his oppression of “his people” in general (and yes, he DOES refer to Christ’s church and Jesus’ own blood-bought disciples, as “his people” and “his sheep,” his, as in “Mark’s.” Ugh!). So perhaps this was just a show, “See, I really am against abuse. I’m a good guy. And I’m going to beat down all those other ‘bad guys’ cuz I ain’t one of ‘em.” And yes, his display also seemed very shallow to me, but even worse, as pointed out in the comments here, his behaviors are either very similar or identical to those of male abuser’s. Mike O, I obviously agree with you on the “contrived” aspect.
You might want to check out my site (thanks, Stephy, for mentioning it!),
Freedom4captives.wordpress.com
This site is dedicated to putting together all the bits and pieces I keep running into or researching about Mars Hill (MH) of Seattle, and Driscoll. I have read countless “horror stories” from those who have escaped Driscoll’s teaching and what appears to be spiritual/church abuse. It looks really, really, REALLY unhealthy to me. The MH system seems to be very similar to the aberrant Christian churches, or even full on cults, as described in Jeff Van Vonderan’s, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and Dr. Enroth’s, Churches That Abuse. Sadly, Mark’s methods and words also seem to be quite similar to abusive leaders described in those two books and in other places as well (see my blog, the post on The Characteristics of a Controlling Personality ).
Awesome point about, “perpetrator-victim-persecutor,” and Mark coming across as persecutor in that cycle.
To the one who said, “just like you, just like me…” re Driscoll and any one of us… hold on here. There are many times and in many contexts where Driscoll comes across as being very abusive. Yes, we are all sinners, and if we’ve rec’d Christ, we are saved by grace through faith… nevertheless, many of us are not acting like abusers, and many/most of us have accountability, and lots of, in our lives. When someone who carries the amount of power, control and responsibility such as Driscoll is behaving in an abusive manner, it is all the more egregiously detrimental, and therefore, NOT okay. Grace and Truth need to always go together. Jesus is our example in this. And he most definitely did call people out… and it was most always those who were religious legalists “beating the hell out of” everyone else.
And Benjamin, I really resonate with something else you wrote, as far as the questions I have asked myself about where these 20somethings will be in 15 to 20 years when they wake up one day, scratching their heads, realizing, “Wow, I never developed a ‘self.’ I don’t even know who I am as an autonomous person, who am I in relation to myself, others and God?” And then many will ditch the entire Christian faith because they will have sadly linked it to Driscoll’s version of “Christianity.”
Slander, Gossip and Warning are three different things. Slander is falsely dragging someone’s name and character through the dirt, lying about them. Gossip is perhaps telling the truth, but with the motive of shaming the person, getting one up on them, etc. Warning is letting others know about the danger so they can protect themselves. Jesus did this often enough (Matt 24) and Paul did this a lot (Galatians, Acts, pastoral letters). You might also be interested in, Christians Criticizing Christians Can It Be Biblical?
also on my blog. There is sin in NOT warning others as they are blindly racing toward a cliff’s edge…
Freedom
Freedom4captives.wordpress.com
There are so many things wrong with this I don’t even know where to start. While I disagree with Driscoll about many things, this scenario goes way beyond a debate about whether what Driscoll did was right or wrong. What Driscoll did was dangerous.
As others have mentioned, the language that Driscoll uses is very, very clearly used to humiliate the men he’s speaking to (little boy, etc). He’s not speaking the truth in love. He’s all but getting off on the fact that he’s right and these men are, in his eyes, wrong. It’s the very worst kind of posturing and abuse of authority and intimidation. Insinuating that God might strike down a communicant right on the spot is reprehensible. I’m also not sure, as an aside, why looking at pornography was mentioned multiple times, while physical abuse was only mentioned as a near-afterthought towards the end, and sexual abuse was barely mentioned at all.
But. Not only is Driscoll being abusive to men, I’d argue that he’s abusing at LEAST many, if not all, of the women in his congregation as a result of that behavior. I’m a person with abuse in my not-so-distant past. That abuse had nothing to do with the church, nor did it have much to do with the abuses Driscoll lists. But at the moment he started screaming, I was frightened. I was not just startled, but legitimately afraid. Someone in control of a situation was screaming without provocation, someone was enraged in a place where rage should have no place. Sweaty palms, throat in my chest, physically SCARED.
There should be NO place for that in the church. None. It would seem a logical first step in shining a light on and bringing healing and an end to abuse should be to giving victims a safe space to share their experience and feel loved, not making a Sunday service a time of exposure another authority figure whose behavior is domineering and scary and unpredictable. And what, I wonder, does Driscoll’s behavior teach a child attending services?
If ANY other professional whose vocation was, ostensibly, to lead and guide and love behaved in that way, saying the things Driscoll said in the way that he said them, they’d be fired. Immediately. I’d be happy if the same happened to him. I’m sad beyond words that it won’t.
Whoa. Apparently I had a lot to say there. Thanks for posting this.
Thanks for your comment Lauren. I hadn’t thought about how Mark’s yelling would affect women present who had suffered abuse. That’s an important point.
I keep going back to that Bible verse which says [Jesus] wouldn’t crush a bruised reed – surely that verse shows Jesus would never do anything scary in the presence of abuse victims. Which means his followers shouldn’t either.
Seems to me like we’re just rehearsing the same arguments here. Driscoll is an idiot. Ignore him and move on, what is the problem?
Joe,
For those of us who have been abused, it cannot be a matter of simply “ignoring” the abuser and “moving on.” When you ask, “What is the problem,” you sound very calloused to the pain that’s been expressed here.
The reason I got involved in exposing Driscoll and MH for what appears to be abusive and unbiblical teaching is for some of the same reasons a man like him is upsetting to Lauren, to Molly, and to me. To not tell the truth, to not reclaim our voice, keeps us in the victim position. It aligns with abuser’s coercion to keep victims silent so the abuser can continue abusing. So, when each one of us comes forward and cries, “Foul!” that is a powerful thing. Sorry if it seems boring to you. You can always stop reading.
I completely agree with you Freedom…
I find it amusing that (in general) women are the people who courageously critique Driscoll. While we men (in general) tend to give him a pass, yell at him, ignore him or minimize just exactly how dangerous he is.
If we got 20 seconds of his rant on TV and played it over and over again like they did with Jeremiah Wright- Driscoll would be gone in 30 days
Dealing with coming out of abuse myself…Driscoll is such a perfect example of so many things I’ve had to come out of. It is painful to me to have so many people I know think of him as this amazing sits-right-next-to-Jesus kind of guy.
No wonder I got suckered into a spiritually abusive environment. There is something about us (well, some of us) that is BLIND to some of the major red flags of abusive behavior. Well, blind until we are hurt so badly that we either die or figure out we’re being used and abused.
Now that I’m out, it just seems so weird that it’s not obvious to everybody. Driscoll and those like him are exactly what I stay far away from. I don’t do it because I don’t like God—I do it in order to protect my faith in God.
Molly it’s great to see you here! Thanks for your comment.
It seems to be part of the insidiousness of abuse that it distorts peoples ability to recognize they’re being abused.
I was surprised when I looked up the video clip on Google and every post of it or centrally about it was positive. Those posts praised Mark for being tough on abusers without noticing that his presentation was abusive.
Again this emphasizes to me the unfortunate lack of psychological understanding prevalent in many Christian circles which imo makes them psychologically potentially or actually dangerous.
Lauren and Molly
Thank you
Lauren and Molly,
also thank you. You are incredibly courageous and honest.
OK I’ll rephrase – there is obviously an issue if people say Driscoll has been abusive, I was not meaning to downplay your experience. Sorry if it came across like that.
I don’t move in circles where what Driscoll says counts for anything and I’ve no interest in him, so I am amazed that so many people seem to be taken in by it all. Again, if you’ve been abused that is obviously a reason to take an issue. My bad.
Joe
Thanks for being kind enough to understand. I think for those of us who live in Seattle Driscoll is much more of a clear and present danger. If he gets national he will eventually get outed. Which is probably inevitable. At least that’s how it happened for his predecessors – Swaggart, Clinton, Baker and Haggard
Joe,
I appreciate the apology. Thanks for having the humility to admit your blind spot, as it were. I have ‘em too. ;)
If in your “amazement” you wish to educate yourself a little about why or how people can be taken in by cults or cult-like controlling systems and leaders, you might want to read Dr. Zimbardo’s article, Why Do People Join & Remain in Cults or Cult-Like Churches? (I have this posted on my site, posts #18 & #19).
Freedom
freedom4captives.wordpress.com
I was touched by Joe’s response too. A couple other books that have really helped me are Twisted Scriptures: A Path to Freedom from Abusive Churches: Mary Alice Chrnalogar and also The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen.
My experience being what it has, I’m compelled to do what I can to help others as I watch what Mark Driscoll says and does.
Coming in late to this discussion, but I share many of the sentiments expressed here.
It may be that someone has already said this here, and I missed it, but I wonder if this sermon didn’t end up putting some women in danger. If Driscoll managed to humiliate an abuser (or several abusers), I fear that this humiliation could have been taken out on the victims of abuse.
For example, a narcissistic man, in his self-absorption, might think that his wife/girlfriend tattled on him and that the sermon was particularly directed at him. This could set him off in a rage.
At the very least, rants like this are irresponsible: They could put victims at greater risk and incite abusers to more violence.
The unbiblical practices of a hierarchical, 2-class, clergy/laity, performer/audience “church”, and a human head preaching at a passive congregation week after week creates a breeding ground for this kind of behavior.
Lainie,
You make an excellent point. My father would have put it a different way. He would say “The shit rolls downhill.”. There is a certain truth to this, and you illustrate the absurdity of imagining that we can get those slightly down the slope from us to stop shoveling shit onto those down the slope from them by shoveling shit downhill ourselves.
Especially when we’re talking about the sort of shit that involves so many women actually *dying* every year from domestic violence.
Huxley
I also rather dislike the hierarchical 2-class clergy/laity, performer/audience “church” model, and rather think we should altogether trade it in for something more like the 12 step mode.
benjamin, Thanks for your reply.
More specifically, the 12 traditions, as opposed to the 12 steps, of alcoholics anonymous, would work very well (with some modification-the tradition that says we should have no opinions on outside issues would not work) for a more organic model for Body life.
Lainie,
You make a very important point. All that the shaming does to an abuser (who is usually steeped in internal shame) is fires him up to spew that out on someone else. The very tone and body language of Driscoll’s in this disturbing clip (notice the backhanded flinging of the arm as if to backhand a victim in the face?) seems to be either one big calculated show and/or a venting of his own, spewing forth some of that shame he refuses to process (assuming from his writing he disdains true psychotherapy). So he victimized his congregation, like a volcano letting off steam and some partially molten rock vomited into the air, otherwise the entire volcano would blow.
When, in the clip, he takes that breath and then begins screaming, I too as another writer here discussed, felt a trickle of terror run down my spine. I wanted to flee or to fight. I got a very clear image in my mind of little Mark shaking, terrorized before his dad who may have sounded just like adult Mark now. (I only say this because I heard a sermon where Mark said his Dad was an alcoholic, and if I remember correctly, was physically and/or emotionally abusive).
A great site for information and resources about pastoral abuse is:
http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/
Oh, and Benjamin, I loved the “shit down the hill” analogy… so true.
Freedom
freedom4captives.wordpress.com
This thread was pointed out to me and I know I’m coming into this belatedly. But there are a couple things in this video clip that are not only alarming, but flat-out dangerous — to say nothing of being in utter opposition to the Word of God He is proporting to preach and Whom he is proporting to represent.
I know others have already noted the dangers and ineffectiveness of shaming an abuser. Throwing gas on a flame is counterproductive. It may be liquid but it’s not going to put out the fire.
But I think it is even worse that while speaking against abuse Driscoll is being abusive. Screaming at anyone is abusive – the end. I don’t care if that person is someone you don’t respect (hello, abuser heart attitude number one – disrespect) there is no person on this earth who wasn’t created in the image of God and whom Jesus did not sacrifice His life for out of LOVE – not rage.
The Word says the anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. So this whole thing here is NOT GOD’S WILL because it cannot accomplish His righteousness. So what is the point????
Then he dares to literally say that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who is doing the yelling. Look out Ananias and Saphira – is that sulpher I smell? Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one sin that God says will bring death in the New Covenant. This is not a small thing. THIS BEHAVIOR BY DRISCOLL IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS.
It is impossible for the Holy Spirit to act in such a way. The Word says that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin – past, present and future. It says that God’s wrath is not even being revealed against sinners in this time under the New Covenant — it is being held until the judgment — because Jesus already paid the penalty for this sin too; even the sin of those who do not acknowledge Him. They will be judged at the end of time for rejecting Christ – not for the sin He paid for.
So how could the Holy Spirit possibly be screaming at anyone?
What Driscoll is advocating is SELF righteousness – since He’s sure not advocating the righteousness of Christ, since the anger of man cannot accomplish the righteousness of God. That would mean that Driscoll is advocating self idolatry!!!! That is diametrically opposite to the truth of the Word.
When Driscoll says, “You change now, little boy! You shut up! Maybe one day you can lead a woman…” He is himself being abusive (since we know that cannot be coming from God) in the name of stopping abuse.
He is also advocating works to please God. Once you get it right, some day maybe you’ll be able to lead a woman. Huh? The only way any of us will ever be able to be righteous is by coming to understand we ARE righteous in Christ. It’s already done for us. And we can choose to be the servant of Christ or the servant of Satan – by learning how to walk and live in Christ, under the control of the Holy Spirit — resulting in the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives; or not. It will never happen by “doing” all these “right” things to hopefully, some day, measure up to Driscoll’s measure stick.
An abuser is an abuser because s/he is choosing to be the servant of Satan and demonstrating the deeds of the flesh. And what Driscoll is saying will only fuel that problem because he’s not pointing to the right answer, he’s reinforcing the problem.
I wish there were a way to make people see how dangerous this is.
– Danni
Thanks, Danni. This reminded me of I Thess 5:22-23, which I plan to someday have tattood as a permanent reminder of what my life as a follower of Christ is supposed to look like.
Did I miss it? Is there a “fruit of rage?” I don’t see it.
With all the bad PR Christians get for how we behave, just imagine what could happen if people actually saw the fruit fo the spirit evident in us! We probably wouldn’t even need to use words … people would just see the evidence in us!
Mike,
Not only is there not a fruit of “rage” in the fruit of the Spirit, there is a fruit of “rage” in the deeds of the flesh, which is the fruit of being a servant of Satan.
The heart speaks out of what fills it and who controls it! Fruit-checking can be quite revealing.
– Danni
Christians have a great deal to be excited and joyous about. Our Father is the Creator and Owner of this world. Our eternal inheritance includes riches beyond comprehension. (Ephesians 3:8). Our Big Brother is the strongest, most loyal, and faithful Friend in Whom we could ever hope. (Romans 8:29; Revelation 1:5)
However, Christians must be careful about giving in to frustration, since the world we are passing through does not share our views. Knowing our privileged standing before the Almighty (even though we do not deserve it), there may be a tendency to be combative with those who oppose us on behalf of the ungodly system of this world.
The Bible is clear about the Christian’s behavioral duties toward those who are lost: “To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.” Titus 3:2
What will help me control my temper when confronted with the evil of worldly unbelievers? The memory that I was once like them: “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.” Titus 3:3
Meekness is not weakness. Meekness is strength which is brought under control.
I know I am coming in very late on this discussion, but after reading so many comments on here my heart remains broken. It is not my place to judge Pastor Mark and speculate what is in his heart. We all think we are right in our own eyes. To me ultimately it comes down to love and what that looks like for each one of us who claim to be a practicing believer. A mature man restores and we as a practicing church must make an attempt to live our lives in a way that will help reconcile the not-yet-believer and the believers alike. I can’t help but think of what my Pastor said this past weekend. “If we attack they defend and if we lead they follow.” I too have been guilty of attacking people with the truth and for that I repent, but what I do know is that love covers a multitude.
Jennieanne,
I appreciate your heart as you express it here, and at the same time, love alone is not and cannot be the answer as love alone is not the only or even the major revealed characteristic of God. He is just, holy, righteous, vindictive, truthful, and confrontational, etc… He seems to be pretty consistent in exposing sin in order to help heal and love. And yet in his doing so, his purpose is always consistent with his love and mercy and grace. He does not shame the one whom He is convicting of sin.
Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth whom the world could not receive. He would send Him because the world would no longer see Jesus. He would send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of “sin and righteousness and judgment.” And even in all of that, there is nothing about blasting the very personhood and dignity of an individual, of a human being made in God’s image.
Mark is spewing out hatred and contempt in this clip here. There is no excuse for any Christian to do so to anyone, let alone a “pastor,” especially a pastor of thousands. It is simply shameful behavior and extremely damaging at that.
If the rest of the Body of Christ continues to ignore or overlook Mark, we are doing him and his church and the mission of Christ no favor. In Scripture, we are commanded to “expose the things hidden in darkness,” and to speak THE TRUTH in love… rather than only to love without speaking any truth, nor to spew out any truth or portion of truth minus love.
Agree with you totally and whole heartedly, but the greatest of these is love. I am not excusing his behavior, nor do I agree with it as it is abusive, but a gentle word turns away wrath. I am all for speaking the truth as long as it is not to slam someone or even bring shame on those who are in error. If so what makes us as practicing believers any different? I just know that I have to stand before the same God. I came from a very abusive church so I error on the side of caution. I have reaped the power of restoration in my own life.
I rejoice that you have escaped an abusive church system and that you are finding “the power of restoration in your life.” That is truly awesome and a testimony to our great God’s goodness and redemptive power. He does indeed restore to us the years the locusts have eaten.
One thing I would caution about however, a soft answer does not turn away the wrath of an abuser. We need to be careful with Proverbs. Proverbs fall under the “Wisdom Literature” umbrella. Many of the Proverbs are “general life truths” meaning that they apply in many situations in life. So, for example, when we read, “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it,” this does not guarantee that 1)the often taken misinterpretation that if you raise a child a Christian, and he falls away, he will guaranteed, hands down, return to his faith one day, and 2)when more appropriately interpreted, even if you raise a child according to his/her “bent,” the way he/she should go according to God’s design in his/her temperament, it doesn’t even promise that he/she will always return to that (abuse can certainly mar someones natural temperament as abuse is soul murder).
So with the soft answer piece… this is not always true. It is generally true. Proverbs offer us wisdom: if you do this, generally you will reap thus and such. An abuser only responds to one thing: CONSEQUENCES, and usually by someone bigger and badder than himself, that means, someone with a bigger stick such as the governing authorities, civil/criminal court, etc. The best thing a person can do when dealing with an abuser is to try to confront him w/ “truth in love,” that is, not blasting him, but not avoiding the hard truth, and when doing this being sure to take along w/ you one or two others who are trained in dealing with manipulative people (abusers are generally very manipulative). A soft answer with manipulative abusers only gives them their way; they are masters at twisting reality and confusing the victim. A soft answer will not turn away their wrath.
A soft answer with a person who does not have a character disorder, who is not an abuser, who can sometimes at least think logically and respond rather than react w/ a hot head, yes, with these people, generally speaking, your soft answer will turn away their anger/wrath.
Does that make sense?
Amazing dialog. I especially appreciate this thought
Sorry that is has to be harsh but it is reality
Jesus knew this
Paul knew this
We know it
If a gentle word turns away wrath as Jennieanne has mentioned then what most everybody is saying here that pastor fauxhawk needs to use some gentle words of his own to turn away the wrath of abusive men in his church instead of going all Hulk Hogan on them and their families who have already heard enough yelling for a lifetime I’m sure.
I don’t know Mark Driscoll, but he is part of the body…and as such I am on his side. I will cover his faults with love and I’m sure that he has them…I will forgive him because I’m forgiven. It’s unfortunate that his method is so distasteful, but then so many times so was Jesus’. I think different people need different things…and they need to be communicated with using different methods. Like children we all have different sensibilities and God, in His mercy, provides us with different voices all proclaiming the Gospel. I imagine that Mark and I would disagree on many things, but Christ asks us (Christians) to be unified. I have been told that this unity of spirit is not the same as agreement. I guess that will have to be okay with me.
What’s interesting is that many here are falling over themselves to condemn a man who is trying (probably failing sometimes) to preach the Gospel and to make followers of Jesus. All because he doesn’t fit your image of “kindness”. I wonder what you all would have thought when Jesus showed his harsher side? Telling the gentile woman to go away, telling a grieving son to let the dead bury their own, telling Peter that he would never get it; Jesus was very direct whenever he encountered destructive behavior. I will bet that at least 5 men have repented of the type of behavior Mark is condemning…it’s not my style, but I’ll bet that it reaches some. Maybe this is the reason that there are so many different “tribes?”
Isn’t this discussion just doing the very thing that many are accusing Mark of doing? At least he is trying to reach out to these men. Which of you here are reaching out to Mark in friendship to suggest a different voice? Or even trying to communicate directly with him to ascertain the truth or fallacy of his teaching. This week’s reading was about Paul defending his ministry to the Corinthian Church…I guess not much has changed. It makes me sad.
I don’t know if anyone has seen this story yet. I just saw it.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700&ref=BPNews-RSSFeed0617
Thank you, Stephy!!
Does anyone else get it? Does anyone else see how sickeningly sexually abusive it is for Driscoll to teach young husbands (by the thousands!) that they can basically demand oral sex from their wives because, he says, the Bible commands it?! What if that wife is opposed to oral sex? What if she has past sexual abuse issues where her dad or other abuser orally raped her? Come on, Driscoll, and everyone else, please, open your eyes! This is beyond, waaay beyond merely putting up with a “Christian brother” who has differing theological views than I do.
The man is doing and saying countless things that appear extremely abusive: spiritually, psychologically (verbal/emotional), and now sexually, in that he is outright condemning the poor woman who will not “submit” and make herself perform oral sex for her husband because it “pleases him.” Oh, and then he claims that one believing wife brought her husband to the Lord by performing oral sex on him. Ok. I see this in John 5:9… NOT!
Ugh!
Sigh!
Freedom!
“Which of you here are reaching out to Mark in friendship to suggest a different voice? Or even trying to communicate directly with him to ascertain the truth or fallacy of his teaching.”
Sue–it’s a very legitimate question/challenge.
Back in late 2006 I went through the process over a few weeks of trying to get a chance to talk to Mark along just the lines of which you are speaking. I rather suspect others did this as well, although I don’t know for sure. I made many phone calls to his office, and was basically told that he was very very booked, his time very much protected, etc. etc. I finally visited the Ballard campus to find out if he could be tracked down in person. The receptionist over there said he pretty much ducks out the back after sermons (generally on his way to another campus to preach again). Beyond that, I finally simply spoke to the campus pastor, who, after treating me amazingly rudely, sort of answered some of my questions.
In fact, the only way a group of local pastors was able to get a meeting with Mark at that time was after a rather large protest was planned at the Ballard Campus in December that year. I suspect there were going to be hundreds of people there, with signs and so forth, all protesting Mark’s misogynistic teaching. A few days before the planned protest, Mark met with several local pastors and the man who had organized the protest. At this meeting, he gave what amounted to a non-apology apology.
All of which to say I and others *have* tried, more or less futiley, to work along the lines you indicate.
I had a pastor similar to Mark.
Many, many tried to talk to him.
It did no good.
There comes a point when you have to shake the dust off your feet and then warn others of the danger.
Benjamin, and Mara,
That’s exactly right. When someone as powerful as Driscoll refuses to dialogue–what can one do? Not to mention the fact he really seems to disdain women with voice, with opinions (and it’s apparently anathema to be a woman and dare to have an opinion opposing his), so how could one such as I, a female (gasp!) possibly get an audience with him, a king? (sorry, a little facetiousness there… sometimes I just can’t help myself! ;) ).
Besides, another key point, if someone continues to display characteristics which the book of Proverbs describe as foolish, then they are probably a fool. Proverbs makes it pretty clear that fools have a propensity to not listen, to not receive reproof and the poor soul who attempts to correct a fool will instead incur their wrath (been there done that!).
Psychological studies make it clear that abusers are not on the same playing field as non-abusers. Abusers are usually very manipulative and are always seeking how to gain control in any situation and with any person or group of people with whom they interact. Power and control. Period. That is their game. They generally are not all that interested in an honest dialogue. If one is to ever confront someone with abusive tendencies, one should always take at least one, usually two or three or more, witnesses to be safe both psychologically and physically.
I heard a very telling story. A woman relayed to her friend a meeting that she and her husband had with Driscoll about their concerns re some of Mark’s teachings, especially about women. Her husband was very supportive of her and she was a smart cookie. As she respectfully yet pointedly laid out the error of Mark’s ways, he suddenly interrupted and turned to the husband and said something to the effect of, “Will you control your wife or do I have to?”
I don’t know how true that is, but when one hears several stories like that, one begins to wonder. At this point I’ve seen and heard enough where I would really have no desire to talk to Driscoll. He seems too unsafe to me, and I doubt it would do any good.
To be honest, as a woman who has been working in the field of domestic violence for the past 3 and a half years and as a woman who has gone to a church her whole life, I find this vidoe clip refreshing. I have sat in too many churches that choose not to even address the issue of abuse in the home and if it is address it is not confronted with passion. I get phone calls from pastor’s wives, elder’s wives, and church wives all the time stating that there is abuse and they need help. The church needs to take a stand on the role of men and women (which this church does) and then passionately and humbly teach that – based on Scripture.
Is his approach to doing this the best? Who knows. But what I have seen done so far clearly isn’t working and these men should feel convicted if they are continually going to church ‘acting’ as though everything is fine. There is too much pretending going on and few seem bold enough to address this.
I appreciate Mark Driscoll’s passion againt sin, loud or not loud. He is addressing men who are in his church, who he is called to shepherd.
brown24, thanks for emphasizing the importance of churches taking a stand against domestic violence.
brown24,
thank you for your work on behalf of victims of domestic violence.
Just watched this on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyHtsU5z9U
Seems reasonable to me. I mean, I’m not sure everyone will dig his personality, but obviously some do.
I guess I’d have to actually see a few of his preachings for myself before I draw any conclusions – and I just might. I just keep coming back to the idea that it’s REALLY easy – and FUN! – to justifiably point out the errors of a public figure once you set your mind to it. Who should we do next?
DISCLAIMER – Mars Hill may very well be the sick place it is portrayed as here – I have no idea. My point is that unless you have personal experience with something, people should look into these things and draw their own conclusions instead of just swallowing whole the opinions of others. There are people I trust on both sides of the Driscoll question. So for what it’s worth, blogs like this are useful when considering who I want to listen to and who I don’t. But if everything I read here is accurate, I’ll probably come to the same conclusion y’all did.
But maybe not.
I really appreciate that domestic violence would be addressed in church. But at the same time, my personal experience is that if an abuser hears a message like Driscoll gave here (i.e., calling him out) it would be a narcissistic injury to the abuser and he would then take it out on the people he regularly abuses. In a family who is prominent in a church, this is done with the utmost happy face on the whole situation and people looking from the outside in would never guess that abuse occurs in that household.
So when I hear Driscoll say these things in the video I feel very afraid and I go into a shell inside because I’m bracing myself for what will come later.
I’ve watched the Driscoll video – I found it very difficult to listen to – he’s shouting so loudly it is hard to “hear” what he is saying. And my first thought was to wonder if he is shouting at himself.
[abuse is wrong and needs to be acknowledged by the community whereever it exists. for me abuse is a symptom of a troubled soul. those who are being abused need to be assisted in removing themselves from the abuser and the abuser needs help, too. And yes, I agree with Brown24, the church needs to address this issue - but first must look at itself. How has the church colluded with the abuser?]
Living in Cincinnati, I have never attended Mark’s church. But, whenever I hear anyone rant the way he rants, it causes me to question why he is having this “over the top” kind of “reaction” to the topic. Based on my own life experiences with “over the top” reactions to things, I have discovered there is usually something “underneath” this reaction…usually some unresolved something.
Recently, I read this article by Dr. Gary Sweeten on the crisis of leadership. The “Common Symptoms of a Leader’s Coming Crisis” sounded a lot like things I am reading about Driscoll.
Here are the ones that jumped out for me:
External religiousness rather than personal spiritual sensitivity. When a leader is caught up in constantly preaching, teaching, confronting others and preparing to preach or teach, he is in trouble. He rarely spends time with God in private personal prayer, worship and meditation and is rarely quiet.
Moves away from mutual submission to family and staff to an authoritarian position. Is not humble with staff, family and members. Will only “submit” to other preachers or equally busy leaders who cannot really know him. Reminds family and staff he is “important” SENIOR PASTOR, APOSTLE, or HEAD OF STAFF! Titles are key to identity to keep the master’s ego intact.
Preaches teaches and writes on the importance of submission and is easily offended when others disagree with him.
Avoids people with insight and discernment. Surrounds self with “yes men.” Is arrogant.
Irrational about his ideas and insists they are correct even if others disagree. Is hardheaded and claims to hear God about dubious things.
These are only the ones I have observed from afar – some of this is based on other people’s stories of their interactions with Driscoll.
So, I could be wrong, but even from way over here in Cincinnati – it looks like Driscoll is heading for a meltdown. It will be a sad and painful day – AND could be…
I apologize for the length of this ahead of time… there seemed to be a lot to address… things for which I feel passionate…
Brown24,
You wrote, “To be honest, as a woman who has been working in the field of domestic violence for the past 3 and a half years and as a woman who has gone to a church her whole life, I find this video clip refreshing.”
For me, as a woman who for three years received intensive training in the field of psychotherapy and has spent two years working with victims of DV and other crimes of horrific abuse, I am simply appalled that you would be “refreshed” by such a sick display of abuse given by a man who evidences very little, if any, humility, and is more often apparently in the flesh than in the spirit. I am curios though, since you state that you have seen so much DV, what prevents you from perceiving the same symptoms in Mark’s display? This really puzzles me. You might want to visit my site and look at the post on Verbal/emotional abuse which I compare with Mark’s behavior… Then see if you really want to tell me how “refreshed” you are by his blatantly abusive display.
http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/34-is-driscoll-verbally-and-emotionally-abusive/
I understand being pissed off at abusers, I’m a survivor of abuse myself. But in our line of work if we approve of the abuser’s being abused by someone else, or worse, if we take part in that shaming and abuse, that is simply called counter-transference (as well as abuse of our power and position). Not only that, this response stems from our own issues, and all of this needs to be worked out in our own therapy because it will not help our clients. And, as Stephy so rightly said, shaming abusers will inflict a Narcissistic injury and in their rage they will re-abuse. I think I can assume this isn’t what you really want.
“The church needs to take a stand on the role of men and women (which this church does) and then passionately and humbly teach that – based on Scripture.”
Yes, the church does need to take a stand, but in this clip, Mark seems to be more angry than passionate and more proud than humble. He is shaming others because he probably has an incredible amount of shame within himself. People who have been healed of shame and abuse do not tend to abuse and shame others!
“There is too much pretending going on and few seem bold enough to address this.”
I agree with you! Pretending is disgusting and is a stench in God’s nostrils as well… He “desires truth in the inward parts” of us, and He says in Revelation that the lukewarm Laodicean church–which is apparently all show and no substance– is so revolting to Him that He will vomit it out of His mouth. Mark is not being “bold enough” to address the issue, he seems to me to be sloppy enough to allow all his own inner rage out, using his stage as a venue to vent and spew on others, the very sheep He is called to pastor… God’s sheep, not Mark’s sheep.
Mike O,
I appreciate your suggestion that we should all be careful not to swallow anyone’s opinion, but to do our own research. Amen to that!
And at the same time, I have to disagree with you regarding what I am doing re: Driscoll & MH, my “ministry,” being “FUN.” I urge you to read up a bit on spiritual warfare… it is anything but fun. When God calls one of His own to stand up to a HUGE abusive system, a Goliath if you will, and to stand up to a leader who appears to be quite dangerous and abusive, the enemy of our souls takes notice because he is all about “stealing, killing and destroying.” And, of course Satan does not appreciate anyone who is trying to restore, bring to life, and heal those victimized by oppression, lies and abuse. I am not eagerly looking for another church or leader to nail. I didn’t want this job and I certainly don’t want more of these.
Elaine,
I really appreciate your comment and your insight. I couldn’t agree with you more! I’ve heard from many other sources what you are saying re Driscoll’s being about to pop. I am just waiting and praying. I do not want Mark to be destroyed, I pray he will humble himself (or be humbled) and will step down from the pulpit and get the healing and therapy he needs. I pray he will not return to any kind of ministry until he can preach in the Spirit of Jesus—and please hear me, NOT the “Jesus meek and mild” as if that is all of who He is, but the Jesus who is also the one with “eyes of fire” and a “sword in His mouth,” who confronts and judges sin, but never shames and abuses! I pray Mark will someday be able to minister in this Spirit, rather than out of his own flesh and past wounds. I pray God will stop him from doing any more damage to people, especially women, but men too because they are receiving very warped views of manhood and how to relate with women. The whole thing seems very sick to me… All is not well in Denmark…
Freedom
freedom4captives.wordpress.com
This is long and I’m sorry.
You all may in fact have a point…but I’ve got to tell you that the tone of this site reminds me a little of the Salem witch hunts. It’s just a little too. You know? I wonder why all of those people attending Mars Hill can continue to attend given Mark’s (alleged proclivities) manifold problems. You have accused this man of abuse (insinuating that he personally abuses women), demonic possession, mental illness, megalomania, and who knows what else. These are serious and very damaging statements. People should be careful when using this type of language, because this can destroy families and communities. Shame on you, any credibility you might have had you have squandered, at least for any moderate individuals.
Forest, I did go to your site and viewed the videos posted there. I think that you overedited them to prove your point. It seems to me, and I admit I am limited, that you have been deeply wounded and that that has colored your view of Mars Hill and it’s head pastor. I asked my daughter about this church. She attends Seattle Pacific (where Mark has been banned access by the way because of his stance on women pastors) and many of her friends attend this church. Interestingly most of the kids just go and take away whatever they deem to be of value and leave the rest. My own daughter refuses to attend simply because she believes that the theology of Mars Hill is male dominated and unfriendly to women in leadership. I personally don’t agree with any theological stance that subjugates any part of the body, however there are many denominations that embrace similar views…the Free Reformed Church that meets in our fellowship hall believes that women are to be subject to man and never preach. I was asked by the pastor how I could believe the Bible and still take the pulpit (but that’s another discussion). Point is, we have freedom to express our religion as we wish. I relish this, because it ensures that I will be able to practice my own faith. The problem with this is that I have to hold others as capable of making their own decisions. I must believe that they are “able” if you will. I have to respect their ability to care for themselves, at least until they ask for my help.
So why is Mark so successful? That is an interesting question…I would guess that he is meeting some kind of need that other churches are missing. I know that he openly addresses many issues in daily life that are untouched by my own church. He’s entertaining, if sometimes profane. He is an expert at the media of the culture. Maybe if we spent as much energy proclaiming the love of Jesus in a way that this culture could hear, people would be more attracted to a community that wasn’t so abrasive. I think that you all should try a positive spin. Say, You can create an alternative for those who don’t want to practice Mars Hill theology-maybe an alternative community where healing is the core element. {one caveat: IF YOU THINK THAT MARS HILL IS BREAKING THE LAW INFORM THE AUTHORITIES IMMEDIATELY }
Finally, my cousin is a pastor. He and 13 others spent an entire afternoon with Mark at Northwest College…maybe the reason that he made himself available was that this group was not interested in attacking him, rather was interested in understanding what he was doing that made his organization successful…I don’t know, but to quote Freedom, there is indeed something rotten in Denmark..and the smell is not JUST coming from Mars Hill.
Peace to all, I need to unsubscribe from this discussion. It’s upsetting on too many levels.
Sue, it appears you have decided not to check out of this discussion. Well, good!
Although I think your tone was accusatory and generalizing condemnation to me and everyone else here, and although I think you stated things that I know you will not be able to find verifiable actual quotes of mine or anyone else’s here which validate your accusations, e.g., no one here accused Mark, “of abuse (insinuating that he personally abuses women), demonic possession, mental illness, megalomania,” and despite your stating that I or others here have “lost all credibility,” and despite your “shaming” me and others here in your: “Shame on you,” I thank you…
…I thank you because if what you said of me or anyone else here was true, that would break my heart. So your brutal words sent me running back into my father’s arms with tears in my eyes and anguish in my heart. “Father, is any of that true?” Together He and I went over each thing you said, and no, none of it is true of me, and I don’t think of anyone else here in this post. I think you are the one losing credibility when you toss out cruel blanket statements. Nevertheless, you reminded me once again of how serious this whole thing is and of how careful I need to be in stating “facts” about Mark, and stating my conjectures and making sure I’ve plainly demarcated which is which. I try, as much as possible, to write, “It appears… it seems… it might be… I wonder if…” I don’t always succeed.
You wrote, “You all may in fact have a point…but I’ve got to tell you that the tone of this site reminds me a little of the Salem witch hunts. It’s just a little too. You know? I wonder why all of those people attending Mars Hill can continue to attend given Mark’s (alleged proclivities) manifold problems.”
Visit any web site or read any good book on church abuse, and it will explain this for you. If you’d like, you can go to my site where I posted a copy of a brief article from Provender’s site and from the perspective of loved ones looking in at their dear one trapped in a cult or in an aberrational “Bible believing” church, “When you want them to leave.” When a person (especially on in authority) with abusive tendencies hooks into one’s needs, fears, and vulnerabilities, it becomes next to impossible to “see” what is really going on, namely, the abuse… popularity means nothing, ABSOLUTELY nothing. Look at the cults, some are thriving in the tens of thousands… God is not impressed with numbers, and neither should we be. Nor, should we let numbers deter our careful assessment of a potential or very real danger… when we do so, we have fallen into the fallacy of “group think.” Look it up.
You wrote, “Forest, I did go to your site and viewed the videos posted there. I think that you overedited them to prove your point.”
My name is Freedom, and I did not edit these video clips. I rec’d them elsewhere from other sites. The clips I have posted say to me that NO MATTER THE CONTEXT these specific things Mark is shown to be saying, should NEVER be okay, ever. And yes, his behavior and words prove my point as I compare those to what experts in the field of church abuse write about the leaders of these movements (see VanVonderen’s The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and Dr. Enroth’s Churches That Abuse). But actually, I absolutely did not hone in on Mark and then go out looking for things to dog him with. The evidence came to me first, and then I began digging– and I did not have to dig deep before a whole lot of dangerous issues and testimonies from others’ whose lives are ruined came forth. It became an issue between me and God: will I keep silent after He has opened my eyes to what appears to be oppression and abuse, and after He has provided me with education in the psych field, as well as personal and professional experience, and the proclivity for research? My conscience would not allow it, nor would my relationship and love of God and other victims allow it. Make of it what you will.
You wrote, “It seems to me… that you have been deeply wounded and that that has colored your view of Mars Hill and it’s head pastor.”
Who among us are not “deeply wounded” in one way or another? It is often out of our own brokenness and healing that we minister. The term “healed helpers” comes to mind. And you do not know my story, you have not researched it, so how can you even surmise that it is my mental/emotional instability (i.e., “deeply wounded”ness) that cause me to look at Mark with a skewed lens? If you had checked out my site with any thoroughness whatsoever, you would get more of a handle on my heart and where I’m coming from. I have tried to be very careful to always compare what I am perceiving of Mark and MH with what the experts in the field of abuse have seen and studied. I have painstakingly done much research and have “listened” to so many testimonies of what is really going on in the “innards” of that church, that what I write is not merely a product of my own lens. I reach out to minister to others who have been broken or shaken up by MH and Driscoll because I have great compassion and empathy for the hurting, especially those hurt by false teaching and authoritarian/abusive leaders and systems. Isa 61:1-4 is my calling. I want to partner with God in healing the brokenhearted and binding up their wounds. Besides, we are all called to “comfort others with the comfort [we] have received from God.” If you would take the time to read my “About” page and “Highlights” and “Discoveries” pages, you would be able to speak with more knowledge and less blind ruthlessness.
You speak in ignorance when you say, “Interestingly most of the kids just go and take away whatever they deem to be of value and leave the rest.”
Mark appears to be a very strong, domineering personality. As Molly Worthen writes in her New York Times article, “he has very little patience with dissent.” How do you suppose a young twentysomething who is yet developing his/her identity and is yet differentiating him/herself from parents and other authority figures, is going to stand up to thirtysomething Driscoll in all his emphatic proclamations and his power? Have you not read about the many women who had felt led by God to go forth and use their giftings to bless this world, and toward the end of their Master’s degrees, they “bump into” Driscoll, and with that pressure and their husband’s buying into Driscoll-“hypermasculinity” (Worthen), these brilliant young women are then coerced into quitting school for the “higher calling” of being a wife and mother, keeping the house? You could not be more mistaken in this comment of yours.
You wrote, “Point is, we have freedom to express our religion as we wish. I relish this, because it ensures that I will be able to practice my own faith. The problem with this is that I have to hold others as capable of making their own decisions. I must believe that they are “able” if you will.”
But you are not allowing many of us here to express our own faith, which for many of us who hold to Scripture, entails holding up to the light leaders’ behaviors and words, to “test all things,” and to watch others’ doctrine carefully as well as our own. Jesus not only said, “Judge not that you be not judged” (I believe this was about attitudes), but he then states, “Do not judge according to earthly appearance, but judge according to righteous judgment.” We are told in Hebrews that our discernment grows by reason of use. We, here, are simply exercising our discernment… Those who are not threatened by it should come forth and dialogue with valid issues and points and actual statements made. Leaders and others who walk in integrity are not threatened by questions and challenges, but Mark calls this “The sin of questioning…” because he says, “There hearts are not right.” And who judges that? Mark does of course. It’s a closed system. And you accuse us all of being on a mindless, cruel, prejudiced “Salem witch hunt.” Hmm…
You wrote, “I think that you all should try a positive spin. … an alternative community where healing is the core element.”
There is no positive spin on abuse. Sorry. There just isn’t. Would you tell a rape victim, “Hey honey, find a positive spin on this. You’re being too hard on the abuser and you’re too wounded. Knock it off. Think positive”? I am hoping that for those who have been hurt by abusers and perhaps by people like yourself who don’t seem to get the reality of church abuse, that my site will create an alternative community, one where truth is spoken, where we can all join together and proclaim, “The emperor has no clothes!” Truth sets us free. Truth helps us heal. Truth is a core element. If this is too uncomfortable for you or too triggering for whatever reason you hold within yourself, you are certainly welcome to not participate.
Freedom
freedom4captives.wordpress.com
Freedom,
Your response here is so thoroughly dead-on and it blessed me. I have been having similar thoughts upon being attacked for the work I do – are they right, God?
But as I pray about it and go back to the Word again and again, I can see no other way. God tells us to expose the works of darkness. That may not feel “nice” in a Christian climate that teaches forgiveness to the exclusion of righteousness. But that is what the Word says to do!
Faith comes by hearing, hearing comes by the Word of God, and how can they hear without a preacher. Someone has to speak the truth held up to the light of the Word in order for those who are under wrong teaching to know the truth and believe the truth. I know from personal experience that when you are immersed in a spiritually (or maritally, etc) abusive situation, when there is no one speaking the truth and the only voices you hear in authority are speaking untruth, it is almost impossible to find your way out of it. It is possible, but very difficult because you have to find the truth on your own, question your conclusions extensively (taking up a large amount of time – even years, during which you are continuing to be damaged and that damage can become literally, physically destructive), and then take a monstrous leap of faith to obey the truth you’ve found against the advice and pressure of everyone you know and love. That is profoundly difficult.
And Paul spoke out, too. He named names right there in the Bible when there were spiritual leaders leading people astray in serious danger. When there was someone in an individual church Paul frequently addressed the situation without naming names, but still disclosed the sin in significant detail and with strong words. There is no Biblical model for the “live and let live” theology being espoused by many in today’s church.
– Danni
Sue,
Since I seem to have been lumped in with whoever you were talking to when you wrote “Shame on you” above, just wanted to say “No thanks, not interested. Perhaps try elsewhere. I’m not accepting any shame today.”
You are right Benjamin..bad choice of words. I am sorry. Please forgive me.
Sue,
What a delightful response. Of course I forgive you. Hope I can be half as graceful when presented with my own bad choices of words. =)
Freedom,
Wanted to say thank you for your powerful combination of wisdom and courage. The world could do with a whole bunch more like you. The sort of ironic thing is that your style/approach and combination of wisdom and courage totally reminds me of a similar mixture of traits I seem to always see in graduates of Seattle’s *other* Mars Hill: Mars Hill Graduate School, which in my opinion is an uber brilliant place. It’s always kind of wierds me other how *astoundingly* different are these two organizations in the same city with the same name.
Plus you taught me a term: “counter transference”. Thank you!
Benjamin,
My heart says, “Thank you!” I was agonizing last night over all of this, and this morning I was just praying, “Oh, Lord, please, for some positive word of encouragement, somewhere!” You are an answer to prayer. You helped me find more strength within myself to sit down and actually challenge another commenter here on what I feel are her false allegations against me and others. Your kind words helped me to do that with truth and love (at least I hope so… I’m so human!)
Thank you, dear Benjamin!
One last post…I think that you might find this book interesting.
A Tale of Three Kings: A Study of Brokenness
by Gene Edwards
Sue – yes, Gene Edwards’ book. I’d forgotten that one. it is a good story.
Regarding the tone of this post
I can only speak to my feelings and life experiences – and what is happening at Mars Hill with Mark Driscoll fills me with much sadness. I do not wish for Mark’s distruction, nor the ramifications that will follow. Our God has been sending messengers/prophets to Mark for some time now – and he has rejected and battered them. (think of Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, and more)
The fact that Mars Hill has grown to a church of over 7000 – does not negate the fact that Mark is in serious trouble. God uses us broken vessels and will have His way – despite us. I am grateful that God continues to use all of us sinners for His glory and the kingdom.
There are 2 things I’ve come to highly value in companies and churches and relationships – transparency and room for dissent. If these 2 are not present, I remove myself as quickly as possible.
None of the words I’ve heard from Mark Driscoll’s mouth invite transparency or dissent.
Ugly things grow in the dark (lack of transparency/light). And if I am not allowed to say no (my dissent) then does my yes have any meaning?
I pray that Mark Driscoll will chose a different way.
Dear Freedom (sorry I messed up your name),
I think that you misunderstand me. “Ugly things grow in the dark (lack of transparency/light). And if I am not allowed to say no (my dissent) then does my yes have any meaning?”
I certainly do believe this and I was not questioning your right/obligation to question. As a matter of fact this is “questioning” is central to my faith. What I was concerned about was the “heat” of the condemnation. Now, I have no way of knowing whether or not you actually feel the heat that I am reading into your posts, but I have to say that it effects my ability to hear what you’re saying.
I guess if it’s not important to you that I, and I would guess at least a few others, are able to hear you then there is no reason to dial back in any way. I now understand that this is a blog for those wounded by abuse. I didn’t realize that when I innocently stumbled into this site. I don’t claim to be one of those…except for the normal church fights and bad behavior, I have never (thank God) been at the mercy of a leader who would use his/her authority in an abusive way. Since my church runs by committee (slow but inclusive) I don’t know that this would be a very likely environment (although I would never say never).
In any case, I am distressed at how thoroughly you misunderstood my concerns. I want to say is…please do not see this as an attack…that I have a different (dissenting) opinion about how to approach the dilemma of bad/ teaching and leaders. How tolerant are you? Because isn’t that one of the very things that marks an unhealthy environment (by your own words). Dysfunction is often the result when folks view themselves as arbiters of “truth”. I personally believe that truth is not a thing or knowledge or even a destination, but a Person and that person says that we are to pray for those who persecute us and to bless those who use us in ways that are despicable.
Should we then meekly accept abuse? I don’t think so, but I think that we must moderate our anger maintaining our righteousness, ensuring that we are not playing tit for tat. Rather, we work in a well reasoned way toward justice. Otherwise, how is an outsider to tell the difference? Before you get all angry I am not saying that you don’t do that. I am just, well thinking out loud. Isn’t that what dialogue is? I really want to explore how to work out this difficult issue keeping in mind this command while still effectively “try the spirits”. This is important, because while attempting to be sure of our footing with bad teaching or teachers, the very evidence of salvation is love. “by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love for one another.” And what does that love look like? It believes the best (always hopes), it is patient, it is kind etc etc. This is hard stuff really, at least for me.
I am so sorry if you were hurt by anything I said on here. I don’t even know you. If i make a mistaken assumption…all that’s necessary is to clarify. Please don’t loose any sleep over anything I say. I am not an apostle, like Paul, nor a prophet like John. I am just a pilgrim “for here we have no continuing city.” In the end, we may not be able to change Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll, but we can for sure change us…right?
Sue,
Just to throw in my $.02, the heat seemed to be coming more from you than from anyone else. In fact, you said at the bottom of your original post that were really upset by the whole thread, so much so that you had considered just leaving and not reading it anymore. It feels like you kind of subtly shift the focus of the conversation so that it’s about Freedom rather than letting it be about Mark.
In fact the whole tenor of your latest comment kind of does that. You basically say in a couple places “Aren’t *you*, Freedom, really the one with the problem, rather than Mark? Aren’t *you* actually doing the bad things you claim Mark is doing?”
This is very typical of what happens in abusive systems. The one who brings up the problem suddenly becomes the problem.
I think Freedom has been really forthright in openly examining and engaging her own motives on her blog. Yes, she’s upset, but she’s being very clear and upfront about what she’s upset about, and where she’s coming from.
On the other hand, I’m not super clear about what you’re upset about or where you’re coming from. I’d love to hear more about that–you seem to have a strong reaction to what you perceive to be a possibly unwarranted attack on Mark Driscoll. I imagine you have back story which at to in some ways drives this reation. I’d love to hear more about that.
Thank you for hanging around and engaging!
Dear Sue – perhaps this post is getting to long – but your comment above
Was actually from my post – not Freedom’s. Does that change anything for you? or were you directed this response to me?
If you were responding to my post, then could you tell me more about what you meant when you said
what is the “heat of the condemnation” refer to?
Thanks, Elaine
Sue wrote:
Hi Sue, I’m not sure what you mean by this being a ‘blog for those wounded by abuse’. People wounded by abuse are welcome here but this blog isn’t specifically ‘for them’. It’s for anyone a) interested in issues related to being a practising Christian and b) willing to engage in respectful dialog. Whether they’ve been wounded by abuse or not.
Sigh, indeed. Good on you for trying though, Freedom.
And since Sue is sure to be lurking back to take a peek – hi Sue! :)
Sue,
I wasn’t going to respond to your comment for a number of reasons, but I feel compelled to point out some things. Your apology and your words here do not ring true, nor humble, nor repentant, nor reconciliatory. But rather to me they seem confused, disingenuous, arrogant, unrepentant and aggressive.
When you say, “I am so sorry if you were hurt by anything I said on here” that is not an apology. For one thing, the IF throws it, for another it is absolutely non-specific. I had listed several specific things you had said which seemed like over generalized, blanket condemnations of me and others here, as well as quotes of mine or someone else’s here that we never said about Mark. You said I and/or others here had “lost all credibility,” and “shame on you.” You didn’t hurt me, you offended me. So, for which of these are you specifically apologizing? And, again, it’s not a matter of “if.” I’d stated clearly which points had offended because of their inaccuracy and generalized attack. There was no “if” about it. You have offended me, and perhaps others here as well. So, no “if”s please. It feels like a cheap way out.
You accused us of having a “Salem Witch hunt” tone here in our comments. Are you apologizing for that? You accused me of over editing the video clips on my site to make my point. This would be a complete lack of honesty and integrity, for which you are accusing me, a person whom you said, you “don’t even know.” Are you sorry for that false accusation? You also seemed to try to take psychological authority over me by stating that I had been “deeply wounded,” and hence due to my mental/emotional instability I was seeing Driscoll through a warped lens. Are you sorry for that? You insisted on having your freedom to express your views and beliefs while denying me and others here ours, that is, apart from receiving your condemnation. Is it this for which you are apologizing? You corrected all of us in telling us we should have a positive spin while discussing very serious abuse issues, thus devaluing us, and dismissing and minimizing the reality of the things some of us have suffered. Are you sorry for that? You dramatically threatened leaving the site because it was too “disturbing” to you, then of course, you kept reading and posting. What’s with that?
It feels to me like I am on the receiving end of verbal/emotional abuse. Verbal and Emotional Abusers say hurtful things, then when pegged on it, they back pedal, claim they’ve been misunderstood and if they feel they must, they superficially apologize. Just as Benjamin has pegged you for shaming him, and as I did in my rebuttal to your accusations and naïve comments, you quickly and superficially apologized. But then you keep on doing what you’ve been doing. You continue to say things that feel like verbal abuse: back peddling, remaining vague and oftentimes being quite confusing. You don’t seem to be dealing with the issues at all. This is the behavior of verbal/emotional abusers.
You are claiming I completely misunderstood you, but you never state exactly how, based on the things you’d said earlier and my rebuttal. And then you quote someone else, rather than what I’d said, yet you are addressing me. You seem to be confused. And as to the “heat of condemnation,” as has been stated, I feel this has come through on your three longish comments in this post, not mine. Yes, I am being confrontational in my calling you out on your apparent abusive behavior via your words. This is not condemnation, this is firmly speaking the truth to a person who seems to be upping the ante in her criticisms while pretending to apologize. Yes, I am angry with you for what feels like blatant manipulation and verbal abuse. I hope you learn how to communicate from a different space.
Even in the midst of your supposed apology to me, you are insulting me yet again. This is prime abuser behavior. You write, “I guess if it’s not important to you that I, and I would guess at least a few others, are able to hear you then…” That is insulting as it implies it is not important to me that others hear me. You went on, “I now understand that this is a blog for those wounded by abuse. I didn’t realize that when I innocently stumbled into this site. I don’t claim to be one of those…” This sounds demeaning to me and others here who have been hurt. You seem to be taking a superior stance. Whereas in my experience it is those who have been abused in some of the most horrific ways who are very strong and deeply capable of ministering to others because 1) they survived the horror, 2) they often work so hard on their issues they go on to live very productive and well connected lives, and 3) they give back in ways that would blow your mind if you knew their stories. So it seems to me that you are brushing me and many others off on this post when you say these words.
You wrote, “In any case, I am distressed at how thoroughly you misunderstood my concerns.” And then you proceed to make it about “how to approach the dilemma of bad teaching…” This feels like abusive tactics: don’t address the real issues brought up, but side step them to a non-issue or a minor one. The real issues were the accusatory, false and judgmental things you had said and how you had said them. I think I’ve understood you pretty well, at least the you you are presenting here. You are behaving in ways that seem to be the same as those of a manipulator; your words seem to be the same as those of a verbal abuser. Such as, “How tolerant are you? Because isn’t that one of the very things that marks an unhealthy environment (by your own words). Dysfunction is often the result when folks view themselves as arbiters of “truth”.” This reeks of accusation and one-upmanship. You are questioning my tolerance, Sue, when you come across as extremely intolerant of me and others here. You then claim that my intolerance is what makes up an unhealthy environment, by my “own words” no less. Then you go on to talk about dysfunction, presumably mine, and how it’s a result of my making myself the arbiter of truth. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.
You then go on to give advice about something you have already admitted you know nothing about, that is, being abused: “Should we then meekly accept abuse? I don’t think so, but I think that we must moderate our anger maintaining our righteousness…” You appear to be judging me and others here as if we are not “moderating our anger”… You then say, “Before you get all angry I am not saying that you don’t do that. I am just, well thinking out loud. Isn’t that what dialogue is?” Another slam, ‘before you get all angry,” as if that is how I’ve been comporting myself. And then you deny saying the thing you just said because now it’s supposedly not about me because you are “just thinking out loud,” as if I am now under obligation to merely accept, rather than address, all that you are saying, because you are, after all, merely “thinking out loud.” Then it feels like you are trying to pigeonhole yet again, “isn’t that what dialogue is?” All of these things look to me like the efforts of an abuser to trap the target, give them no way out, accuse them while apologizing, being vague, diverting, blame shifting, defending, minimizing… And then you seem to attempt preaching at me and others about what it means to walk in love when it appears to me that you are doing anything but. Manipulation and verbal abuse are not love.
And I didn’t “lose any sleep about anything you said,” rather, I sought my Lord to ascertain if there was any truth in your “heat of condemnation.”
Freedom,
thanks for expressing when I also intuited. I would love for Sue to hear your words. We’ll have to see what happens.
Sue Says:
I hear you Freedom and I can see that you are bound to misinterpret anything I say. Now you’ve decided that I am an abuser too. WOW! My first inclination was to step out of this conversation because I doubted that anything fruitful could come of it. Now I’m sure that that is probably for the best. For the record I was NOT apologizing for anything I said, I was merely stating that I didn’t have a lock on truth and that you shouldn’t lose any sleep over anything that I said since I am not a prophet nor an apostle.
Just like you…I think that I am allowed to disagree and I am allowed to make judgements, but I’m not so certain that they are always right. You have parsed my arguments to suit your own purposes here (that’s a judgement). What I haven’t done is to call you an abuser (although I feel abused by you-that’s also a judgement). That word “abuser” is a pretty powerful pejorative. I disagree with the way throw that word “abuser” around. If that’s abuse then so be it. Truthfully, I think you’re on a “crusade” (this could be seen as a pejorative in this context, but it is also a judgement) here. I just don’t care that much (this is not a judgement, nor a pejorative, I am speaking about myself and my motivation).
This will be my last post and I will not read any responses, because this (MY participation) is wasting my time and yours. Good luck with your ministry.
sigh
Sue,
My ever so vague memory of Gene Edwards’ book is of finding is astoundingly offputting. Of course this may not have been entirely Gene’s fault, as the setup for me reading it wasn’t exactly ideal. But from my memory I would actually gently warn against the book. Now I shall have to reread it, so i can remember what my difficulty was. It was recommended to me by someone in the spiritually abusive sect I grew up in, as I was in the process of leaving, in the vein of “Well, read this, and you’ll see how wrong you are (and by implication, how right we are)”.
Benjamin,
I guess if someone aims anything at you it would seem offensive. It’s not my intention to “aim” Edwards book at you to show you your error…I just think that it’s an interesting take. I am more interested in truth that being right. I find that the older I get the less certain I am about almost everything.
It’s interesting to watch “iron sharpening iron” here. At least in my opinion.
Some here are helping the more passive ones (like myself) to PAY FREAKIN’ ATTENTION to what is happening around us, and that SOMETIMES THINGS MATTER!! I know I need to be confronted with that – it is my nature to let things go when I maybe shouldn’t. And likewise, we peacemongerers are hopefully helping the rest of you to see the edge you have have and keep it right.
I think it’s good. Could it be we can ALL take something away from this conversation and make our own approaches to following Jesus, well, more Christlike?
Mike,
I can’t really do much in the area of making my approach to following Jesus better, since I don’t really consider myself a follower of Jesus.
Nevertheless, I do believe I hear what you’re saying. I’ve very much liked the tone that has been maintained here, and been honestly somewhat astounded, considering the … generally much less palatable tone to so easily be found in many places when trying to discuss hard things. Of course this has been a bit of a hallmark of Off The Map since the beginning, so maybe I should stop being astounded now.
Sue,
I think that’s a really lovely and gracious thing to say, that the older you get the less certain you are about almost everything. I am feeling less certain about a lot of things too as I deal with my past and my spiritual abuse. It is scary to question the ‘faith’ I was raised in, but I find that the more I question it the more it actually becomes faith, and it makes me feel I’m more of a whole and honest person.
Anyway, just wanted to thank you for that sentiment.
Sue, Stephy,
re: the older I get, the less I “know”. Me too.
Sorry, Sue. I didn’t mean for it to be you.
For what it’s worth, I just went back and read EVERYTHING Sue wrote. Not an abusive post in the lot of ‘em.
That was uncalled for. Geez, why can’t you just let a girl disagree???
I’m done, too.
Just to break up that nice even 100 comments thing.
Looks like the Southern Baptists were also discussing Driscoll at their recent convention. There was a motion
The only thing more interesting than Driscoll are the people who get so angry at him. At some point we have to ask ourselves are we really just that excited about Justice and Love…..or is there something else that motivates our fear, anger, and hatred (i’m sure this isn’t all of you) for this man. He is just a man.
Ben, I so appreciate your question and your encouraging a need to pause and to reflect here, to look at our motives, what drives us…
This entire conversation here has caused much soul searching on my part, including actually what you bring up. I need to be very careful which battles I engage in, and how I engage in them. I’m weighing even heavier re: what I will post on my site, why, how, when… I’m not going to be perfect either.
What is so vital to me, here, on my blog, in my life, is that people who are being manipulative, controlling, potentially or actually damaging to others (i.e., abusive, the ugly A word)need to be called out, challenged with the truth of what they are actually saying and doing. When good people stand around and do nothing, abusive people and abusive systems thrive, meaning, more people are victimized.
So for me, re Driscoll, I see many, many hurting people bound by that which once bound me (not him particularly, but another abusive pastor). My heart breaks, my heart cries out for freedom for the oppressed, my heart cries out for healing of the brokenhearted… and yes, to be absolutely honest, I am sure, I know, at times I have felt less than love, let’s put it that way, for Driscoll. It needs to be more a matter of prayer on my part, that is for sure.
Thanks for the challenge, Ben.
Freedom – thanks for your words. I hope people take my comment as you took it: as only a question.
I do not want to belittle the pain that people have experienced. I only know myself all to well. When I am really angry or hurt by someone it is usually for two reasons: they are fallen AND I am fallen. I usually like to focus on them. This last year I have more learned to focus on myself.
there is a much more extensive and messy dialogue over the content of this post that I somehow got myself involved in here:
http://lollytruly.blogspot.com/2009/06/mark-driscollyeah.html
I am a horrible writer with awful grammar who tries to sound more educated than i am and that comes out in my writting. so if that is annoying for you, just a disclaimer – don’t read this! :)
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To say that Mark Driscol’s Rant is wrong is strange to me if you are a believer.
So far there have been a few posted opinions here that seem to come from the place of christians having been overly influenced by our current societies obsession and really religion statused belief in moral relativism. This is an example of how we are all so easily “conformed to this world” (myself definitey included) and need the truth of God’s word transform our minds and our thinking so that we do not live according to the phylosophy of the worlds ways but according to God’s way of living.
We have many examples of biblical patriarchs who behaved in ways that were counter cultural and offensive and were defended by God when opposed, leading a person to believe that He condoned or in christianese “they were led by the Spirit” to do or say what they did or said.
Someone posted that they expect Mark Driscol felt this was “Righteous Anger”.
We have the example of Jesus in the temple that had been dishonored by people. To say that his anger wasn’t premeditated is odd. He is God. Of course he knew how he was going to handle the situation. Of course he knew what the reaction was going to be from the people. He had to spend time “fashioning a whip”. I’m pretty sure he had thought it all out and decided to handle the situation with the emotion of “Righteous Anger”. I believe this serves as a model for Christians that the emotion of anger that we all experience isn’t a sin, and to express that emotion is not only appropriate but necesary in certain situations.
The Bible also says to “Be angry and don’t sin.”
are most people able to do this? probably not. Is it possible? Yes it is.
As far as the opinions that have been posted accusing Mark Driscol as perpetuation the situation by being an example of what he was preaching againts – Again I ask you to look at the example Christ gave us of being angry.
The situation that caused Jesus to act the way he did in temple was absolutely wrong. The temple was meant as a way for people who were seeking God to find him, to honor him, to have relationship with him. This was the heart of God for the people. The “money changers” had turned it into a place to make a profit off of the people’s sincere desire to know God. Sin. The spiritual leaders of day ALLOWED THIS TRAVESTY TO TAKE PLACE. Sin is what angered Jesus to the point of what most today would agree was a rampage of rage and violence. He whipped people! He fashioned a whip and he whipped people like cattle and DROVE THEM OUT.
Mark Driscol wasn’t speaking to non-believers when he went on his “rant”. He wasn’t speaking to men who beat their wives and then cry in a closet with tears streaming down their rosey cheeks asking God to please, please forgive them. He wasn’t speaking to to people that struggled with this sin and were working their spiritual butts off in their sanctification and striving every day to live a life that exemplifies Christ laying down his life for their wives.
Mark Driscol was yelling at the men in room who were in the same religeous attitude as the “money changers” and the pharasees. Men who go to church and live religious lives thinking that God is okay with their sin ruling their lives. Men who have 0 intention of changing their ways and continue to live in the sin of abuse toward their wives. That is who he was addressing. And for every other man that was present that didn’t struggle with that sin, i can understand why you might be annoyed, offended, angry at his manner of addressing such a heinous sin becuase it’s not something that perhaps is a close situation for you. But I dare say your reaction wouldn’t be mirrored to his if you were in his position, or if you were close to such evil – your son in law abusing your daughter perhaps would merit the same reaction from you who are quick to say Mark Driscoll is dangerous, or maybe you would have a worse response then premeditated yelling for a measured of amount of time.
And to those who say Mark was “bullying or verbally abusing” people and that such a tactic wasn’t going to help abusers stop the vicious cycle – again I ask you to look at the example of Jesus in similar situations. Who was Jesus most verbally harsh towards? The pharasees and the saducess. The people that were religious and were unrepentent sinners in God’s eyes. Was it wrong of Jesus to call these men “White washed tombs?” or “Broods of Vipers?”
Sin is serious and God is seriouse about it.
I am not saying that Mark Driscoll is always right all the time, no one is, not even Paul the apostle was right all the time – i don’t know the guy (Mark)and even if i did, no one can know his heart but God who will be the one to judge all men’s deeds at the bema seat of Christ. It is good to check out what a teacher of God’s word is saying and we should always do that. But I feel i need to say that most of the postings here were filtered through people’s own opnions and perspectives on life rather than thru God’s word.
As far as Mark yelling at people – the bible has way more to say about the resposibility of the of the listener then the delivery style of the preacher. (I am not ignorant of the passage that says teachers will incure a harsher judgement but nothing Mark said was false teaching according to God’s word)
I grew up in very calm churches who’s sermon styles are very subdued and “teach” more than “preach”. I will most likely never feel comfortable in a “preaching” style church But I will try not to allow my prefrences to color my evaulation of the message being taught.
Im not saying Mark Driscoll is perfect or Jesus or lead by the Spirit or not. What i am saying is that yelling a mass group of people and speaking to the ones that are carnal christians isn’t sin. And the only real reason i think people are giving him so much flac about it is because our society is very passive in alot of ways and very tolerant of things that shouldn’t be approached with a calm demenor everytime.
oops – got an important phone call. and i was starting to ramble anyway…
I know this comment comes many months after the original post but I just found it while “googling” something else. First let me say I listen to Driscoll regularly but I am not his blind defender. Second, why do you apologize to non-Christians, are you craving their approval? or is it that Driscoll touched a sensitive spot on your own heart? Tell me where is the unrighteousness on the clip you are refering to. He yelled too much?, he confronted the men of his church? he said the “H” word? hmmm, I wander who else has done that before?
If you do not like his style, that is your own preference, but to write a blog to blast a pastor whom you disagree with and then say that “I have no comment about Driscoll’s teaching, belief about women or emergence as the poster boy for the neo fundamentalist movement in America…” is uterly irresposible and seems cowardly. you either have an opinion or you do not. It is like a drive by shooting, you just shot on that direction because they are there and it seems like they are stealing your thunder.